The Future of Web Apps from Tech Ed New Zealand October 19, 2010
Contents
1. Male audience talking Richard Campbell Sorry Adrian Krzyzewski Focusing on a device is fundamentally wrong What we re talking about is ubiquity in total immersion and that happens once in the entity of things mates connectivity to enforce 24 7 and situational devices and thinking in the paradigms of a screen or a browser or even a thin object Is this fundamentally wrong Darren Wood Yeah was kind of move on to something else It s just setting up scenes for the future One of the aspects of that that vision is the way you separate the personal device versus the social space inside the family helm and the place where you sit around and you consume media and you watch stuff that s part of your family time together everybody is sitting in there in that room with their own personal devices so their own way of consuming the media and that think paradigm should be Richard Campbell Last five minutes guys Let s give some final comments from each one starting this side Chris Well what our future with web apps believe it s going to be like these guys are going to give more and more like this You know we re going to hit don t think that is a not ubiquity model It s not hideous things making the whole it s not that beautiful sci fi space It s going to be aimed at we re going to have a parallel you know people living in Africa with dial up modems they re to have people who use internet to deal with t2. Richard Campbell There s a happy turn on Chris You trust your government Now we all live in rich levels of democracy that s pretty safe today but if you look back you know it doesn t take many decades for a government to go bed if you like history Male audience talking Chris Yeah presumably but different but yeah Male audience talking Chris That s right Yeah that s a very good point Andrew Tokeley You ve got to make your very strong decision when you choose the Cloud provider You re out making a decision that could be the life of your corporate the strength or the execution of your corporate services and if that Cloud service is going to execute fast and efficiently you could go and what do you do about that And also well they ll just shift us to another place of provider thatsmost appropriate Page 13 of 16 Rocks Richard Campbell Yeah It seems to me especially because of the bandwidth concern around New Zealand that there needs to be co providers in country and think that s generally an issue for a lot of data anyway There s plenty of law in your side of things that says our citizens data must live in the country It s a privacy related data and don t think that s going to be going away any time soon We are trying to address this sense of privacy I m interested to see generally the kiwi attitude towards government That seems very friendly You are concerned about it seems to
3. Richard Campbell Does anybody here believe we re going to get away from needing to say if IE9 then if Chrome then just don t think we re going to get away from that Andrew Tokeley I m optimistic Richard Campbell Good Andrew Tokeley Alluded but optimistic Transcription by PWOP Productions http www pwop com The Future of Web Apps from Tech Ed New Zealand October 19 2010 Richard Campbell Well feel like HTML 5 0 is as shiny as it will ever be because it s close but not shipping Andrew Tokeley Yup Richard Campbell And so this is as good as it s going to feel next comes reality Darren Wood Well mean the W3C for everything that they ve done which is great typed in there Richard Campbell Oh yes Darren Wood Like this is 2 0 which is most we ll use that every day That arrived like only a few years ago that they finalize that So 2022 for HTML 5 0 yes that is an awful lot of time away but browser is supporting that already IE has been supporting a bunch of stuff since version 7 0 so why not use it It s there and we don t necessarily have to listen to the standard s body to say okay it s 2022 let s roll it Adrian Krzyzewski But there comes a standard when every browser in the market supports a common set of features Richard Campbell And we finally hit a point where the IE6 utilization got low enough and can finally say friends don t let friends run IE6 anymore and we re
4. building websites to go you re writing IE6 you need to get over it Adrian Krzyzewski Yeah Richard Campbell Butwhat s that number wonder if the same thing at the adaption of HTML 5 0 browser is like how many maybe 2022 isn t a stretch It s going to take a few years for people to move to those browsrs Darren Wood Yeah would imagine sir Perhaps that s why it s so far hit But having said that you can manipulate IE6 to make it kind of sort of play Richard Campbell like abandoningit so much better Adrian Krzyzewski Yeah Andrew Tokeley Yeah Darren Wood Yeah Adrian Krzyzewski But the problem isn t the browser uptake It s faster than we thought we knew Richard Campbell Yeah Page 9 of 16 Rocks Adrian Krzyzewski You know there are so many waves on what s happening and we re still only playing on what s on in E6 Richard Campbell Yes Well and there s a whole other issue or there is still HTTP 1 0 Adrian Krzyzewski Yeah except from here Andrew Tokeley Certainly not the future Richard Campbell A question at the back here I ll come Let s meet me halfway Okay came a lot further than you You re slow Hi what s your name Alan Mason My name is Alan Mason Richard Campbell And your question sir Alan Mason Isn t HTML 5 0 and even Silverlight really catching up to what Flash have been doing for years really Richard Campbell That s fair We have not given Flas
5. http www pwop com The Future of Web Apps from Tech Ed New Zealand October 19 2010 Page 16 of 16
6. yeah Richard Campbell We get into the Betamax VHS to date where Betamax was cool for some period but Sony crippled it with its low licensing requirements No two ways around that The inferior technology won and wonder if we re up against the same thing here To me the issue seems to be the threat of patent violation around those codecs that the fact that we have H264 which we all know and understand but the best feature of that whole thing is we know that a licensing lies with it even if it s the next best at least it s Known Adrian Krzyzewski think you re on to a good point there but I think it s not so much the technology that s sitting behind it It s possibly who becomes the fastest content aggregator who s got the most content who s got the greatest fall in the content is most interesting to the audience Andrew Tokeley You re saying YouTube works Adrian Krzyzewski Well maybe not Richard Campbell YouTube Adrian Krzyzewski But then theres this commercial content and there s free content The commercial content is the stuff that people you know the Lost the Desperate Housewives the stuff that people kind of want to watch for free and they re getting for free If you aggregate that on the web if you re the big volume house they can get to sit down and pass to anybody else and you propose a particular standard then you re not going to win in that particular standard Richard Campbell That s another el
7. New Zealand October 19 2010 comparing JavaScript with Silverlight and this guy had no idea about this awful radical slam and so there s a lot of people who are making this comparison that s not really necessary They re not competing with one another The alternative technology is that iPhone app is probably less than we think are big to different levels Even totally agree that Silverlight and Flash have more development primary kind of like what are the impressions like what are the page impressions of Flash It s YouTube it s Richard Campbell Facebook Holy cow there s a whole culture of Flash apps in there Adrian Krzyzewski Well guess sorry I ve done big fumbles Richard Campbell All right All you need to do is have a couple of teenage daughters in your life you get to know about Flash running in Facebook Adrian Krzyzewski Yeah So often teens ask these questions from a technology point of view So the adaption of Flash wasn t because a bunch of geeks in a room thought it was a cool technology and put this on the web and run it and saw the waves because yeah it uses once it played video once you ve seen video see on in their websites and was very much driven by users and so itsprobably something I m going to talk about There s an interesting distinction between the way Apple run their business and the apps that they provide is very much a user driven focus and they look at what the user wants they
8. closest to me Introduce yourself and what you know Chris Hi I m Chris O Donohue I ve got a history of you know development in ARC strategy for about quite a few years now run an ISP in the early 90s Richard Campbell When it wasn t cool to do so Chris Not seemingly wholesome but it was fun Richard Campbell Yes Chris And it s been a favorite of a ton of major media companies to sort of charge their own mind in their innovation and recently in charge of a small international software development Richard Campbell Awesome Next stop Adrian Krzyzewski Hi I m Adrian Krzyzewski work for TV and such soon to leave and starting a new company Richard Campbell In web space Adrian Krzyzewski Yeah and while in discussion you know in architecture Richard Campbell Okay Adrian Krzyzewski So l m an enterprise architect I ve been involved in the creation of TV insert coder inserts and TV inserts on demand and so now in the senior structure of architecture and stuff Richard Campbell Excellent Transcription by PWOP Productions http www pwop com The Future of Web Apps from Tech Ed New Zealand October 19 2010 Andrew Tokeley I m Andrew Tokeley I ve been involved in software development for quite awhile and predominantly in the Microsoft platform and am currently working for Xero Richard Campbell That really like you Andrew Tokeley Yeah yeah yeah Adrian Krzyzewski think he
9. how Haystack will shorten your development cycle Richard Campbell The strength of Flash is 10 versions It means version 10 that is a mature technology adaption that can t be touched It s everywhere It s only now that we ve got this huge flop around Apple choosing not to allow Flash on their devices that we re finally dealing with situations where we love devices that won t run Flash Darren Wood And then it becomes even more use of choice If want to have iPad Richard Campbell l m going to give up Flash Darren Wood So I ve got to give up Flash Transcription by PWOP Productions http www pwop com The Future of Web Apps from Tech Ed New Zealand October 19 2010 Richard Campbell Yes So we ll actually drag it to the forefront of the user think the other struggle of Flash ultimately think is the development tools aren t as sturdy as some but they do work and they ve been around a long time Adrian Krzyzewski But again my mom doesn t care They block and build the XAML app Richard Campbell But this audience does Adrian Krzyzewski But this audience does That s why it says maybe not the determining the future with it Richard Campbell Yeah they have to live in it Adrian Krzyzewski Yeah Richard Campbell So by that token if we just look at the pure numbers Flash is a logical choice It goes everywhere Unless they have a requirement to go on in an iPad up until now Flash is the safest c
10. much focus on the experience the end results the profitability the marketability of the thing that you come with you whereas the crumbs from the ground has got oh love this technology It shines It puzzles the people in this room and are often convince by the technology before they actually use it So depending on which pull is stronger depending on where the technology drive to correct what he collects what people want it s stronger that people are saying really want this thing now and want to run on 3D on a TV and the other look at you too at the same time Those are the things that perhaps can answer some of the questions that we re posting now in terms of what the future would be This portion of NET Rocks is brought to you by the Haystack Code Generator for NET Code Generation on steroids Want more control over your Code Gen You want your code generator to give you Silverlight 4 0 WPF and ASP NET CRUD screens The Haystack Code Generator for NET will generate entity data and business rule classes for all your SQL Server and Oracle tables views and store procedures Haystack generates ASP NET WPF and Silverlight user controls View Model classes and WCF Service Layer classes for true and tier applications Check out codehaystack com download the user manual and watch the videos from more information on this great product They host a live webcast every two weeks You can sign up at pdsa com webcast and see
11. of an app possibly comes in there Boy we re thinking of great sales pitch for Silverlight here Darren Wood Well HTML is free Richard Campbell Yes and worth every penny you pay for it And don t know if this fear this is a fear that have Being an old guy in the HTML space remember how fragmented the HTML 4 0 was when it first came along Every browser implemented it differently and then there was almost a race as to who Transcription by PWOP Productions http www pwop com The Future of Web Apps from Tech Ed New Zealand October 19 2010 could polish that feature in a different way and I m definitely afraid that HTML 5 0 is going to go down the same path Darren Wood Well HTML 5 0 has taken everything that we ve done in the past and rolled it into the standard Richard Campbell So it s design by a committee Darren Wood thing Well no That s the interesting Andrew Tokeley Yeah that s Skyball Darren Wood And this has divided a lot of HTML there because what it s doing is it s loosening up the entire thing because it s paving the curve path essentially That s the fundamental design principle of HTML 5 0 People have been building crap HTML since the dawn of time So let s just roll that into the standard mean rather Adrian Krzyzewski Are you happy there Richard Campbell You know told you just how I m going to get this weekend and think you guys do roads that way too Darre
12. problems Richard Campbell Well let me throw this at you in a different way then because think you re hinting along the same lines which is does the web application even exist anymore The same way is there any application today that doesnt use networking in some respect and if it s on the network the web is not a big jump It s only just two different protocols or anything there It isn t every application now effectively a web application in that definition The only question mark there is baby browser or not but look at ClickOnce delivering perfectly on the client apps but installed over the web What is it Is there anything that s really not a web application anymore Adrian Krzyzewski That s a mess of gray area In the Silverlight space in WPF it s even more distinct because it s very obvious that graying of the space Richard Campbell Right Adrian Krzyzewski You go from a clog in in a browser and then there s a gradation of out of browser They now becomes a pure WP effect and so you have this adhere of you know Windows is trying to save an app here or using similar technologies and that sort of continual of stuff dream of a future of web apps where go following new web app and l m coding away and then go you know slip sometime then trek go okay I m going to target that to the Windows Phone or Im going to target that to like BizTalk Just like when you target a framework now you re building a
13. this sort of begs a question as to the different side of this whole conversation around future web apps which is the same way that HTML 5 0 seems to be blowing up the story of what the clients are going to be like Is Cloud blowing up the life of the ISP Why are we going to need ISPs if everything is living in one of four major Cloud providers Adrian Krzyzewski Well doubt it s going to be one of four because of each provider and things like that But web space is going to go back to access front page Richard Campbell You think we re going back to Adrian Krzyzewski Access Richard Campbell Access Adrian Krzyzewski You know like providing like access to the middle Richard Campbell Right would think that maybe they pick up a piece of the Cloud They run their own Adrian Krzyzewski think they ll try but you know certainly for big commodity colos think that will enrich it You know think it can config with the end results on Microsoft Richard Campbell Right So the same way that most ISPs don t own the IP addresses per se They re licensing from ICANN and so forth and they generally don t own their own wire They ll eventually not own their own servers Adrian Krzyzewski Yeah Richard Campbell So why did they exist Adrian Krzyzewski Because consumers can t get online by themselves Richard Campbell Right Adrian Krzyzewski They need help Transcription by PWOP Productions http
14. those with massive multiplayer Transcription by PWOP Productions http www pwop com The Future of Web Apps from Tech Ed New Zealand October 19 2010 Richard Campbell Massive multiplayer The Win Phone 7 0 is bringing interesting space in there where they re talking about the integration with XBox Adrian Krzyzewski Yeah You know that s why find it so hard to get upset about Darren Wood Give the guy the bat I ve gota 19 year old boy who has spent a lot of time Richard Campbell Right Well and it looks like they re building more and more ingredientsto just spend more time Darren Wood Yeah Andrew Tokeley I ve got maybe don t want to take over the con here but I m really interested When thought about this topic What s the future of web app so came to know what other when think of the future the keynote they had like space age was it the keynote that had this video and she was lounging on a couch and doing stuff with something and the TV was changing There are all these other avatar like technologies that she was using and yeah it was sitting in front of Firefox on a browser with some tick boxes and ticks on it It cannot be the future of web apps and like to think that maybe other people have got a vision for what they think things are going to be like in a few years time and if that vision copies all by the technology we have here the next show is perhaps where the technology now has
15. www pwop com The Future of Web Apps from Tech Ed New Zealand October 19 2010 Richard Campbell So we re counting on the incompetence of Microsoft s provisioning to keep them in business Adrian Krzyzewski Not just Microsoft For example you know Richard Campbell Oh there s lots of yeah Amazon will hurt Adrian Krzyzewski Ooh programmers are useless Richard Campbell You know we better survey the room here How many people consider themselves a web developer in this room right now So thats about maybe a third How many considers themselves infrastructure experts Round that with web infrastructure Very very few So the rest of you are just happy to be here Are there other roles Like we re still missing about two thirds of the room Just regular web artist Oh how many designers Most guys are here Darren Wood Just developer developer rather than a web developer Richard Campbell Just a regular developer Yeah Primarily put themselves as developers We stillhaven t got half the room How many people s arms can t be lifted above their heads There we go okay So now we re seeing they were loud for the Welcome to NET Rocks but they re a little more shy when you want to categorize Adrian Krzyzewski Yeah Well that s a lot of explaining from above Richard Campbell There you go don t want to be any particular species Chris That s right But don t know don t really care about the fu
16. Berners Lee will come down like a ton of bricks on me if say anything otherwise Andrew Tokeley But these are all very user facing like the veneer perspective of the internet and there s a layer behind there that s Richard Campbell Canadian born in New Zealand OK Andrew Tokeley Very true Transcription by PWOP Productions http www pwop com The Future of Web Apps from Tech Ed New Zealand October 19 2010 Richard Campbell Yeah Andrew Tokeley Oh to catch the chase mean your chinky eyes are looking through this complexity They re looking to reduce the cost of deploying the big iron infrastructure they have to build apps They want to know that the solution they re going to build is going to wear and now want to know that it s going to be scalable and not complex Richard Campbell Right and of course this leads beautifully into the Cloud space of these things and believe it s a perception not a reality that offload that responsibility entirely on your Cloud provider and so you ll have to send angry emails as necessary when they don t deliver for you Andrew Tokeley Yeah but it s not as simple as that is it Because you ve got this existing application infrastructure that needs to be integrated that needs to be abstracted and destroyed some think and it needs to be perhaps it needs to thread its way in an asshole for a small just sort of apps it s sitting apps in the Cloud Richard Campb
17. BizTalk app or ASP NET sites and you choose the targeted framework and all of a sudden you target NET 4 0 Transcription by PWOP Productions http www pwop com The Future of Web Apps from Tech Ed New Zealand October 19 2010 and you have now a reference NET 4 0 assembly So you could do some goodness there Now that would be kind of cool on targeting the BizTalk and now already have access to those assemblies that will run on the BizTalk Similarly if I m targeting the phone it will be nice to only have those that can target that device Andrew Tokeley It s almost like you re describing HTML 5 0 there you see Adrian Krzyzewski If it weren t for the fact that the future devices are going to run these applications it s going to be there But those devices that we re using you think of television you think of fun all those devices require applications that run with them to also talk to those things to read the theme and know where you are to list up and some of those things they come into HTML and thats really exciting But wonder It s going to be interesting The HTML 6 0 and 7 0 are they going to really allow that sort of interaction with the device that they re running on and yeah it s kind of the same box now that s kind of not allow them coming about Darren Wood Well maybe this is the creative non technical side of me coming through But for me HTML is not even a programming language Its markup Richar
18. NE T Rocks The Internet Audio Talk Show for NET Developers With Carl Franklin pinsdin and Richard Campbell a RQ own OE ocs orn HTTP www dotnetrocks com Carl Franklin and Richard Campbell interview experts to bring you insights into NET technology and the state of software development More than just a dry interview show we have fun Original Music Prizes Check out what you ve been missing t j Carl Franklin Richard Campbell Text Transcript of Show 603 Transcription services provided by PWOP Productions The Future of Web Apps from Tech Ed New Zealand October 19 2010 Our Sponsor telerik HTTP www telerik com The Internet Audio Talk Show for NET Developers Rocks Lawrence Ryan NET Rocks episode 603 from TechEd New Zealand recorded live Wednesday September 1 2010 Music Lawrence Ryan This episode is brought to you by Telerik by Haystack and by Franklins NET Training Developers to Work Smarter and now offering video training on Silverlight 4 0 with Billy Hollis and SharePoint 2010 with Sahil Malik order online now at franklins net And now here s Richard Campbell Richard Campbell Hey New Zealand welcome to NET Rocks Wow my goodness you guys are enthusiastic and I ve heard that all you Kiwis are so restrained So we re talking about the future of web development and we have a panel of esteem experts sitting here Let s start
19. a concern Adrian Krzyzewski Yeah it certainly is a concern and that you know from broadcaster s perspective transcoding into multiple transcode format is a cost you don t want to have to cover and tie to working bottom line Richard Campbell Right Every time you switch formats you have other problems as well There s certainly been a drive towards like a completely open codec but it doesn t seem like anybody is willing to support that Darren Wood Well open source and open formats are think quite scary because you ve got a bunch of frankly pizza smelling nerds sitting in the backroom doing something magical and a lot of times like Firefox is happy to adopt that because they themselves are an open source sort of organization Transcription by PWOP Productions http www pwop com The Future of Web Apps from Tech Ed New Zealand October 19 2010 But it s the more corporate and Apple and Microsoft is sort of finding it difficult to come to terms with ARC for example which is the proposed open format for video and audio At the end of the day the best one is going to win mean if you look at something like the GIF PNG argument personally I m going to go with PNG outright Richard Campbell Right Darren Wood Not only because it s open but because it s a fast period technology than yeah Richard Campbell It s nice when those two things go together but they don t always go together Darren Wood That s right
20. bout your auditing management you don t care about your privacy settings you don t care about buffer overflow SQL injection You know guarantee every person who s written you know user input here with SQL in back is vulnerable Richard Campbell Why don t we hammer on the identity pass Shall we talk a little OpenID Do you think this is the one Well we ve seen this movement now with the Facebook Google Twitter conjunction saying your ID there can be use on these other sites So just the beginning of single sign on that will actually work Adrian Krzyzewski Federated stuff Richard Campbell Federated stuff essentially Adrian Krzyzewski Well think federation don t think that the thing is the answer to your site but a federated mobile is the way to go You know it seems obvious that you re not going to trust one pyramid of controls Richard Campbell Sure you are It s Google Adrian Krzyzewski Yeah yeah l m sorry the corporate space essentially Darren Wood Well Microsoft tried it Adrian Krzyzewski You re right with your custom I ve tried to but have failed Oh my Lord Richard Campbell Yeah Remember passport Adrian Krzyzewski Yeah yeah yeah Well it s still going Windows Live it s called now Richard Campbell Yeah but you can t create your passport accounts but Expedia will use your live account Adrian Krzyzewski Yeah Richard Campbell But that s about it Adrian Krzy
21. bout websites and still haven t seen a great answer to that that we just haven t adopted yet Male audience talking Sorry You re going to say that Male Audience Web Finger Richard Campbell Web Finger okay So that s the kiwi version of it Now just said guess the American version Web Finger okay Its a Web Finger it s a technology for sort of keeping your Male Audience Federation and stuff Richard Campbell And then implement that on my website Gentlemen any idea Never used Web Finger Oh you ve missed out obviously Audience Oh don t be asleep But again it s like yeah the Federate ID think is the way to go think the standard have been operatibility the twin instance is important By the time we get there why can t just you know had my company s ID page that log into and use that regularly Like the cards it might not be companies or your Facebook account becauseit s got build some pictures from It s the last night for you guys so Adrian Krzyzewski mean Web Finger presume that Web Finger is an application It s not Richard Campbell You let those Web Finger guys know they have a little more work to do Page 12 of 16 The Internet Audio Talk Show Rocks Adrian Krzyzewski They got us Male audience talking Richard Campbell Yeah everybody has got work to do Yeah there s no two ways about it Darren Wood Yeah Richard Campbell But what concerns
22. care Chris You know they like having 20 sign ons Richard Campbell Yes Chris And they hate haven t to type their address thirty times Transcription by PWOP Productions http www pwop com The Future of Web Apps from Tech Ed New Zealand October 19 2010 Richard Campbell can do all my sign on through Google gig They get chills and perhaps not unwisely Chris Yeah yeah Exactly As soon as you get around the fact that you need to have a password mean that s the fundamental problem Isn t it Richard Campbell Uh hmm Chris It s kind of a fool made the fool think find who you are because it s yeah someone could find the app someone could guess it Yeah it s more fingerprint read is a witness game or the fact is it was somehow made mainstream and usable then we wouldn t have this one it would be a non issue unless someone cut your fingers off or push Adrian Krzyzewski Yeah Richard Campbell And why are you encouraging them to do that Chris Not only that You know the proxy information of absolute identity stored by some corporate or government information out there not just like your signature or a password you ve chosen but it s your DNA it s your retina it s your fingerprints You know by metrics it s 65 years ago that there was a certain country in Europe that sort of use all of the huge information that they get out of the previous ideas so then they go stick people in death camps
23. cations You can read details and download the handlers at telerik com silverlight And hey don t forget to thank Telerik for supporting NET Rocks on their Facebook fan page facebook com telerik Richard Campbell One of the pushes of the SOA architecture was that we were going to end up supporting a lot of clients and we wanted to lighten the load on those client implementations Adrian Krzyzewski That s right Richard Campbell Now here s an interesting point You brought this up already that Smartphone apps generally are not in browser because we don t have Transcription by PWOP Productions http www pwop com The Future of Web Apps from Tech Ed New Zealand October 19 2010 so much horsepower that we can afford that inefficiency but are they web apps Adrian Krzyzewski Yeah guess we re not suggested this topic because was thinking about the apps that we build today Richard Campbell Right Adrian Krzyzewski And a lot of the apps we build today were like web apps They re perhaps more traditional since the HTML based sites but think that the evolution of web apps is perhaps more accurate Maybe we re evolving to non web apps but yeah they re using some of those Richard Campbell How about web dependent app Adrian Krzyzewski Maybe yeah Darren Wood That s a good term Richard Campbell What apps aren t web dependent in some respect It seems like all these Smartphone apps are very web dep
24. d Campbell How about HTML 5 0 You relast Adrian Krzyzewski Thanks Well agree with almost everything that was mentioned there But think the fundamental problem is or will be the lack of standardization and specifically when you come to interfacing with this Cloud environment You know what is your API going to look like Are you using REST are you suing surf What is add in that like how easy is it to swap in between So as a standard mode have to say that focusing on standards will make the web a better place not only from a front end point of view but across the board Richard Campbell As long as that standard is Silverlight yeah Adrian Krzyzewski Frankly don t really mind what that service as long as its open accessible and relatively easy to understand Richard Campbell That s great for one Hope it is good for you Thanks for coming to NET Rocks Good luck Music Carl Franklin NET Rocks is recorded and produced by PWOP Productions providing professional audio audio mastering video post production and podcasting services online at www pwop com NET Rocks is a production of Franklins NET training developers to work smarter and offering custom onsite classes in Microsoft development technology with expert developers online at www franklins net For more NET Rocks episodes and to subscribe to the podcast feeds go to our website at www dotnetrocks com Transcription by PWOP Productions
25. d Campbell Well we ve been saying that for years but for an entirely different reason but yeah Andrew Tokeley Indeed Darren Wood Well and think that s an important point to make It s you can go through a bit down and learn how to program and do these things correctly say correctly but as lack of proper application But HTML sees it s really easy to achieve these things without getting too involved specifically as creatives It s the perfect solution However there s a flipside to that There s the Dreamweaver the Front Page that s going to mingle and produce some horrific things So it s a fine line and think the kids today are finding this Sorry why did say now The kids struggling Sorry think it s just becoming more accessible and easy to produce these rich applications without having to rely on a hot cool programming background Andrew Tokeley though Sure That s just the front end Darren Wood It is the front end and that s what the consumers use Andrew Tokeley Exactly and it s how much more that s sitting behind there Page 4 of 16 The Internet Audio Talk Show for NET Developers Rocks Darren Wood Yeah Andrew Tokeley The Cloud obviously brought a different perspective that hasn t been there so much in the past or is not so accessible as it is in the past By Cloud mean consumerable services not just SAS applications Darren Wood Yup Richard Campbell Well and
26. el you developers think the wheel is going to be full of consensus think you re going to be writing less and less of code and you re going to be using a lot more mesh up stuff sitting in the web It s going to make life extremely complicated hence making decisions and choices around that stuff becoming a business decision rather than a developer decision Richard Campbell Excellent Andrew Tokeley I d say from my perspective the future of the web is not as bad as it sounds think it is very exciting for developers and think that the challenges are going to be it s going to be more and more demands for your applications that you build to tag at more and more devices and thats becoming economic challenge for your boss because he s going to have to decide how much to invest in each of those It depends on the front end applications that they re going to talk with the Cloud wherever they might be So you also have to make some decisions about the technology that fits the users think future future HTML is not going to cut it in the front and kind of form to fill those needs We need communicating device we need to interact with each other stuff Those scenarios HTML hasn t got the ear and I ve met resistances with it HTML will evolve to become a Page 15 of 16 The Internet Audio Talk Show for NET Developers Rocks to jump out of its sandbox more because if it doesn t then other things will need to Richar
27. ell Uh hmm Andrew Tokeley And something needs to orchestrate that and something needs to manage that and whether that be in the Cloud itself whether that be partially an infrastructure you ve already built or partially in the Cloud Who knows My guess would be more and more of that sour world is going to now stretch into a Cloud space Richard Campbell And you re not talking about UDDI are you Andrew Tokeley No I m not particularly talking about that but that is an interesting area Standardization for example is the real got you perhaps the adaption of Cloud services Things have to if you re going to consume a Cloud service and it s coming from one provider and now the Cloud is going to be from an body kind of what s cool inside the API kind of what s the same standard Otherwise you can t on the fly switch over to another provider Richard Campbell Well and debate you know we saw this in the original web service model in WS Star standard where it turned out people just don t do that that you don t switch providers casually Its a very cautious thing Maybe it s only a disaster recovery scenario but generally speaking people pick their services they sign up for them very specifically and they learn to deal with the API differences and the WS Star standard is just terrified and they got buried part of them Page 7 of 16 The Internet Audio Talk Show for NET Developers Rocks Andrew Tokel
28. ement of it You know think we ve gone down a particular area here at which certainly we try to poke holes in HTML 5 0 but think it s pretty hard to resist its long term potential But isn t there room for Silverlight and heaven forbid Flash in the foreseeable future Page 3 of 16 Rocks Adrian Krzyzewski Yeah A good question to ask and what we ask ourselves when we got together before this was what is a web application So we post the question of the future of web applications and it s actually quite harder to find now It used to be not that long ago that the web application was simply an application to live through the browser and then obviously HTML was you know it s above everyone else stands by its approach mean you have the widest possible reach it was all goodness But guess if we re thinking about the future of web applications it then becomes well think it becomes more from the browser It becomes what s driving the applications on your mobile devices You ve got lots of native apps defined on there live native apps defined on there and so it does a more of an acceptance of non HTML based applications driving your x s to the darkroom services of the web and so all of us just think of web applications It wasn t an old fashion way It s almost like a snot client a thin client mentality but bigger than just this is HTML cool or is Silverlight cool or is Flash not cool think they solve different
29. endent because they can t afford a lot of processing horsepower in their device They re spending most of that for the Ul and then they re shoving up typically to the Cloud to do their competition on the backend Darren Wood That s a great idea but specifically in New Zealand we have broadband issues Richard Campbell No Darren Wood Yeah In fact even in mobile Richard Campbell No Darren Wood And think that becomes an interesting point and keep on saying HTML 5 0 but HTML 5 0 gives you the opportunity to have an offsite cache and think perhaps not in the distant future but certainly in the next year or so this will have to become something that we use more and more and consider when building apps it s like when to poll to server Is the server even there Richard Campbell Right mean at that whole ability to survive in a disconnected state Right Darren Wood Yes Richard Campbell Who was it Was itEzra Dyson who said it was easier to put Wi Fi everywhere than it was to build a good disconnected client It s hard to actually have an app that tolerates losing its connectivity Page 6 of 16 The Internet Audio Talk Show for NET Developers Rocks Darren Wood Ifthat s the future If we re going to build apps that have to offline themselves using web technology like HTML offline storage then yeah the role of JavaScript to coordinate that offline storage when it goes to take network availabil
30. ey the future However we re talking about Richard Campbell In the future it s all going to work Andrew Tokeley Yeah Most of us But the future could be mean a vision of the future for developers especially it could be a great place to play being able to offer you business units not a constraint service but completely ended service on a commodity basis and that s great However I m not Richard Campbell You re not sure what it is Chris Well think as to my drawn table you know dream succinctly talk about a lot of organizations they just draw this way and by one or reduce complexity but also they ve got business units they want the innovation inside those abstraction layers So really obvious ways to achieve both your goals but then give us the consumer space which is we ve got different drivers and a lot is around Ul You know like it s got a nice portion of skill It looks good Andrew Tokeley on a peg You re calling it and just stick Richard Campbell Hey now Darren Wood That s fun Chris And you know we ve got these parallel drivers and in the corporate space it s the least important pair that looks and functionality is important usability is important but look there s some Andrew Tokeley the And cost is important Cost is Richard Campbell Well yeah and that gets back into Chris It s the guide here and so is outside Richard Campbell The maintainability
31. h enough love mean it s got a huge level of adaption across browsers for an add in It s remarkable and find consumers and CPU cycles too Darren Wood It came from my firewall Richard Campbell Yes just watch the video where one of the new Android phones have Flash 10 0 on it that it was actually in real time was able to watch the battery go down Darren Wood That s an interesting question It goes back to something said earlier about paving cap off and sure HTML 5 0 maybe catching up to Flash Richard Campbell _ think that s a stretch Darren Wood Yeah Well and you know you have to remember that HTML 5 0 is just HTML mean it doesn t have action script on the backend or C or whatever So yes it is catching up Would it replace it I m not totally convinced but certainly think it s going to take some of that love right away Things like video and audio Adrian Krzyzewski Yeah but there s kind of a perception not here because you re all white and intelligent but a common perception out there is that Flash and Silverlight play video and now HTML 5 0 needs to play video so they re Flash and Silverlight killers and so Silverlight and Flash are way more than just play videos You know there are whole platforms to do what they d be allowed with So often these debates and there was even an awful lot of call about Transcription by PWOP Productions http www pwop com The Future of Web Apps from Tech Ed
32. he shopping in browsers It took some people to enable this It s going to be unfortunate The older technology Richard Campbell You know I ve got to stop you on the Africa thing I ve spent some time in Kenya where if want to buy something if want to pay back the five bucks you ve lent me pay you on the phone Everything is phone driven go to my shopping off my phone Chris Yeah right Transcription by PWOP Productions http www pwop com The Future of Web Apps from Tech Ed New Zealand October 19 2010 Richard Campbell It was an up site to not having the old infrastructure around They get to build the new infrastructure first right Cell phones drive that country They ve got a very different perception of the internet than we ve got It s not necessarily a bad one Chris Not I m afraid I m not saying it s different I m saying it s AIM AIM AIM Richard Campbell Right Chris There s not some ubiquities Richard Campbell Or you can say if then if then if then because that s what we re really good at as developers Chris Or from a developer s point of view yeah you just gave a hip a hell whole lot more Richard Campbell So the future of web apps is more pain You heard it here first Chris Yeah more pain unfortunately because people are kind of going to have more and more cool ideas and the old ones aren t going to go live Richard Campbell All right next stop Darren Wood fe
33. hoice It was everywhere Andrew Tokeley build it If you could find a place to Richard Campbell Yeah Well it was fun You know the most of what Flash developers I ve met don t have time for interview because they re too busy making money They re busy guys It s a very popular space to be in and mean it s interesting to have Silverlight trying to work into that space and bring regular C developers who are able to do that sort of thing because Flash development is an interesting challenge don t know if we address your question sir per se wanted to give Flash a little love because it earned it but it s already take two It works both ways but you know if nobody use the product then nobody will really be upset with it Andrew Tokeley That s right Richard Campbell Well guys we ve got about 10 minutes left Where haven t we gone We gave a little Cloud time we ve definitely made fun of HTML Darren Wood much Ooops We ve already moved very Richard Campbell What do we have back then Darren Wood much We haven t got to security very Richard Campbell Security is just HTTPS Darren Wood Yeah Page 11 of 16 The Internet Audio Talk Show for NET Developers Rocks Adrian Krzyzewski That s crypt art Richard Campbell Oh okay mean most folks that s their reaction to security It s we ll just putin SSL and everything will be fine Adrian Krzyzewski Right So you don t care a
34. ity and stuff currently the tooling around doing thatis challenging to say the least You know it s not that easy for a developer to debug those things There are challenges to deploy those things because sometimes it could be challenging versioning across browsers That s just obviously a challenge Adrian Krzyzewski think maybe the future of the web application a developer should think about focusing more on the JavaScript skills I ve come across some fully grown well formed developers who cry with fear when they look at JavaScript Richard Campbell They re for a cause This sensitivity is a horrible brain Adrian Krzyzewski But mean JavaScript like you said is the way to solve these issues and it s perhaps up to us to increase our knowledge and skills when it comes to JavaScript because it isn t that scary mean wow think Richard Campbell jQuery is remarkably more powerful Adrian Krzyzewski Yeah Richard Campbell Butisn t the alternative to that is to go down the Silverlight path get my cross platform and get to speak C and live a happily JavaScript free world Adrian Krzyzewski Yeah but why Oh yeah can we give him aclap Awesome Richard Campbell And get to go on the phone and get to go on the desktop and get to go on where else could go on Adrian Krzyzewski As a web standard s note l m going to have to fight you on that one because the guys above will fight me Tim
35. make sense that we would have a central authority for identity Adrian Krzyzewski Oh my hook Richard Campbell Which is a question of who that authority maybe We want single sign on We want that federated Adrian Krzyzewski Federated can bea decentralized federation You can decide your trust boundaries between your IDP and whatever your federation was Richard Campbell m just wondering if that s beyond the level of the average consumer Adrian Krzyzewski I m notsaying they cant manageit just that they have an organization that they be trusted Richard Campbell Because there are signs it will keep you safe Like mean yeah we end up Adrian Krzyzewski Wehaven t sent he web app So Richard Campbell Again we get back to this situation of we want to appoint a leader in this space and then we won t trust them Whether that be Google or a government or Microsoft or Verizon it s the same problem each time We don t have a consensual Adrian Krzyzewski But some people will trust themselves and some people will trust their goal if we have got a confederated system The tooling they can trust that or trust their local tennis club Richard Campbell The local tennis club Guys let s move on to a finer topic as we wrap up What is the future of online gaming around this There s a different cost to web app and certainly one with some money in it Adrian Krzyzewski Yeah hope more save well I d like
36. me is in this conversation so far Look in the Future we ve been looking at a choice of technologies that are coming along and saying this one has got a strength that one has got strengths but the federated sign on the identity information we still don t feel like we ve got the technologies we really like It s not like if ever we just shoot OpenID we d be fine Darren Wood Yeah Richard Campbell We re not there yet haven t seen a technology to make me go crazy but that s the one Maybe that s the one that will get adopted Chris But the only thing really for the last few years we ve decided on federated sign on yeah like they were able to sing the federation is the way to go Richard Campbell We re at the sharing passwords phase in the conversation now Darren Wood Yeah Chris So yeah there s a long way to go Yeah we ll bring it back to what think the future will be So it s where is the data where is the object You know things like the data fitfully sits in the Cloud services out there in some server type service can picture and identities were almost case strips and say we haven t got a Richard Campbell No we haven t got it Chris We re sort of getting there but it s not big a gig Nothing is making me excited or again excited about the implication Richard Campbell It s pretty much just the folks in this room that care about identity that way think the regular consumer hasn t thought to
37. mpbell Darren Andrew Tokeley Sorry That s all to the app where you know sort of being able to watch the code in such a way that it degrades nicely if it comes across tag it hasn t seen before you know if the browser doesn t break nicely and stuff So think that s holds well for the future of HTML and not being so standard bound perhaps Richard Campbell But at the same token if a standarddoesn t actually set useful guidelines for work it ends up going in multiple directions Witness SQL where effectively there is no real nobody gets everybody complies to the standard and nobody actually uses it Darren Wood The exact same thing happened with XHTML Richard Campbell Uh hmm Darren Wood XML came on board everyone got extremely excited They were like okay we re going to forget about HTML and make it into XHTML and that tanked XHTML 2 0 came on and it was completely not backward compatible and game over HTML 5 0 was like wait wait wait Let s just go back Look at what people are doing and use that Another important point for HTML 5 0 is that the standard is telling browser vendors what to do when it fails as well which has always been inferred by the browser vendors but there have been no standards around that think that s an important point as well and it helps the browser vendors of the world to reduce something that is going to essentially make our lives and a bit of this end designers much easier
38. n Wood Yeah yeah yeah Richard Campbell Oh did say that out load that issue Darren Wood But that whole thing of standards is really interesting because when you get Silverlight bigger on the stage and admire it yeah they all say the problem with HTML is that you re going to wait until what is it 2011 or Richard Campbell Didn t they say it should be 10 years before it s fully ratified It will be like 2022 Andrew Tokeley But I think the interesting thing that is evolving now which is in HTML favor and end up the browser being in this favor is this kind of social conscience going on that we re seeing in some of the social networking sites now where you have people participate in this no rules environment and your peers kind of enforce this behavior and adherence to the way things should be done and so you re seeing vendors in general working as quick as they can because they don t want to be the last one there to adopt the standards they re not standard yet and it begs the question do we need a standard body to say yes we re not ready far this ready Or should it be that the good sort of development practices are adopted that Daniel told about that they talk about is it Daniel Page 8 of 16 The Internet Audio Talk Show for NET Developers Rocks Darren Wood Darren Andrew Tokeley Daryle Darren Wood Darren Andrew Tokeley Daryl Darren Wood Darren Andrew Tokeley Darren Richard Ca
39. r client you re not going to browse to twitter com You re going to crank open whatever you re using on your phone So its talk a little bit about whether we should talk about the history of stuff because it s like things are repeating themselves and we re now getting richer clients than we ever have Even though the seller cloudarchitecture is there we re still putting processing on these clients and all the different devices and there are also some interesting equations about as somebody builds these applications how do you split your time across those multiple devices you have to target without having to build a unique app for every single flavor of fun and toaster and fridge and television Carl Franklin This portion of NET Rocks is brought to you by our good friends at Telerik We ve been blown away by the uptake in the quick adaption of Silverlight It s no secret though The platform didn t provide for consistent integration with the Web Analytics Services Well not anymore As you might have already heard Microsoft announced the Silverlight Analytics Framework which solves the abovementioned problem But what s also interesting is that Telerik already provides support for the framework Telerik is the first UI components vendor to offer handlers for the Silverlight Analytics Framework Using RadControls for Silverlight you can immediately benefit from the advantages of the platform and start tracking the statistics of your appli
40. re very good at design they re very good at the way the thing feels Microsoft recently is taking quite a different approach where they re targeting developers with their new platforms they re targeting the development community to fall in love with Silverlight to have relationship with XAML to do stuff to build apps for the Windows Phone for the browsers and they re hoping that will begin to create apps that the users want to buy So it depends on whether you re talking to a technology person or not as to where they think Flash or Silverlight or whatever is a good idea People yeah you ask my mom but you see now you wouldn t have much as she doesn t know the browser But you ask someone who uses it with general Richard Campbell The regular consumers aren t aware one way of the other They just want it to work Adrian Krzyzewski They don t know that much It consumes Darren Wood But we re at a developers conference These guys are going to developing these Page 10 of 16 The Internet Audio Talk Show for NET Developers Rocks Andrew Tokeley have bosses who are going to say is this going to be a cost effective thing really Is what you re developing going to be reusable is it going to be re deployable is it going to work on many platforms Adrian Krzyzewski But your boss is more like my mom and Andrew Tokeley he s right I don t know your mom but Adrian Krzyzewski Your boss is very
41. s the only other guy who works for Xero here Andrew Tokeley So yeah that s kind of a good position to be in in this topic of future web apps You know Xero is doing pretty well and have that mark in the future that s quite interesting So I m a Silverlight MVP so that s also relevant guess to what might be the future Richard Campbell Uh hmm Definitely impacting the web Andrew Tokeley And was terrified for coming here that would be with the Twitter phenomenon that s happening that you get instantaneous feedback on your performance on the stage and now we have the NET Rocks recording as well which will go even further than Richard Campbell Its all right We ll make sure we circulate your email address on the show as well Andrew Tokeley Okay okay still get an app Richard Campbell Yeah you do And certainly the last but not the least Darren Wood My name is Darren Wood I m the talking funking nerd and also a Mac user I m hoping that you guys will just protect me from the hoots I m a web standard nerd design websites all day build using HTML and CSS so yeah web standards Richard Campbell All right Don t look at me What did say Okay didn t say anything All right where shall we begin Obviously all of this is now simple the future of the web is HTML 5 0 and we could go home right Andrew Tokeley Yeah right Richard Campbell Andrew agrees Andrew Tokeley Well it s certainl
42. to evolve to realize those missions and what the poor leaders in the industry are thinking about what they want to do in the future to bridge people Richard Campbell Was everybody in the keynote saw this sort of seamless integration approach to what s on my phone ends up on my surface because we all want 15 000 on the coffee table It was over at my TV shows up on my PC We talked about this part That was very cool now like that a lot It was even more Andrew Tokeley Yeah It s really easy when you have discussions to think about the technology that we know about but that s now and we can think how it might evolve to tomorrow but yeah we haven t talked about this sort of ubiquitous way There have been a lot of ways with there is no ways it s just a container for these applications and whether that s a browser or not You know that s an interesting Richard Campbell Well saw the twit It says in 2022 hope we re not using a browser think in 2022 don t we go to the matrix head plugin thing And l m going to watch HTML 5 0 errors directly into my eyes Helios Page 14 of 16 Rocks Male Audience You ve got a very long cord Richard Campbell Yeah Andrew Tokeley You have no idea of having a TV set in your living room That s your computer that is your presentation for your social family as folks and how to watch that Adrian Krzyzewski Sometimes like today having people here have gotten like a
43. ture lanes to Skyball the exit provision and who s going to Well I ll tell you that s a different conversation a wee bit So think some of the major issues like we talk about earlier what is a wee bit is you know like we talk a lot about presentation of like HTML 5 0 is a direct replication on the BizTalk and then when does the logic start when does the data start You know dream before talk back consumption services at the Cloud or it might be consumption of the speechless service from an Outlook replication and basically before the expansion up to many devices many services that s what consider the future of web apps felt we ll have presentations that may or may not be in the browser maybe a rich device for supplication or and a logic that might sit somewhere in between the web and the device Page 5 of 16 The Internet Audio Talk Show for NET Developers Rocks Adrian Krzyzewski The interesting thing is though that we bring for a few years now we ve been really big on thin clients You know it s the beauty of web design It s pretty thin But it s becoming thicker and thicker Next we introduce AJAX and JavaScript and more functionality within HTML language itself and Silverlight is Richard Campbell Even the modern Smartphone blows that up There s a lot of horsepower ina Smartphone Andrew Tokeley And in native apps you might use a browser if you have to But if you ve got a Twitte
44. y not the future butit s the way it s going to go mean HTML 5 0 used to be called Web Application Richard Campbell Right Page 2 of 16 Rocks Andrew Tokeley And they basically took it away and rolled that into HTML You know itsleast mocking documents up online and more creating applications usable functional bits of things online and it doesn t necessarily mean a web browser It could be your cell phone your telly your fridge if you re that fancy But it s certainly an exciting way forward without having to bother about plugins or any sort of proprietary things Richard Campbell Really Andrew Tokeley What s really nice before this when we talk about it you didn t mention plugins once Now that s Richard Campbell Well the game is on you Andrew Tokeley Everything Adrian Krzyzewski Where s the plugin then Richard Campbell Because if we re still battling in the HTML 5 0 stand there s not so much plugins But codecs mean what video format are we going to play and that effectively now we re back to the plugin requirement I m going to have to install something to make that work Darren Wood Yeah that is true That s a constant battle think H264 is going to win Richard Campbell hope so Darren Wood But there are of course the licensing issues that come with that Richard Campbell Yes Darren Wood I m probably not the best person to talk about those things but it is
45. zewski But think you re right though that if you look at the future of web apps again the change that s happening is that we do have multiple accounts with multiple different companies all over the place running on some native some not yeah all Transcription by PWOP Productions http www pwop com The Future of Web Apps from Tech Ed New Zealand October 19 2010 over the place and so yeah think you ought to get a really great memory for passwords or you do what probably most people do and just have one password and just use it everywhere or you use Richard Campbell have lots of passwords They re on Sticky Notes all the way around my monitor Adrian Krzyzewski That s solving that problem Yeah the future of web apps can solve that problem well in a way that actually is not too hard to sort of implement like a counselor should say Darren Wood Yeah Such that you make barriers to adaption and a lot of things There are barriers to adaption in the integration of some applications especially when a client Richard Campbell Well absolutely The idea that who has seen that OSCON demonstration or the keynote by Dick Hardt where he talked about there s a bunch of stuff like what s making me crazy is entering my address again and entering the same criteria over and over again It s like calling the telephone company have to give my phone number four times every time they had me off It feels the same way a
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